Dr. Morr (00:00): So when a patient comes to me, I offer them details. Sometimes they say, "Hey, I don't need to know all the details." I'm like, "No problem." And other times they go, "Wow, that is so interesting. No one ever told me anything about that. That makes total sense." And that's what I do because I like teaching, number one, and I like to inform. I think people need to be informed. Dr. Souyias (00:20): Thanks for listening to The Special Lists presented by Referral Lab, the podcast for dentists and dental specialists. Dr. Seda (00:28): And we're back. Welcome everybody to another edition of the Special List Podcast. This is Dr. Michael Seda, and joining me today are my co-hosts, Dr. Cameron Full. Cameron Full (00:42): Yes, sir. Dr. Seda (00:43): And Dr. Jason Souyias all the way from Michigan. Dr. Souyias (00:47): Woo-hoo. Last minute win. Dr. Seda (00:49): We have a special guest in store for you all today coming to us live from Florida, Ventura, Florida. Cameron Full (00:58): From the fucking bunker. Dr. Seda (01:02): We have a man that needs no introduction other than to say that he's well known for not being shy to give his opinions, especially as they pertain to teeth and the restoration of them. Tal Morr. Dr. Tal Morr coming to us from Ventura, Florida. How are you, Dr. Morr? Dr. Morr (01:25): Very good guys. How are you? How are you all? Dr. Seda (01:28): It's an honor to have you on today. I'll never forget the first time I met Tal in person. It was in a very intimate conference, the International Interdisciplinary Dental Conference. And Tal was sitting right behind me. And this was probably, I'd say, I don't know, 10 years ago. No, maybe 15 years ago. And most conferences, there's a lecture, he gets up there, he's well prepared, he presents the information, everyone listens quietly and then asks questions at the end. Well, this was quite different. Tal was in the crowd and as the lecturer was not even like three minutes into the lecture, Tal's just pimping him on things, things he disagrees with, things that he would do differently. And I finally turn around to see who this guy is sitting behind me. And actually, Tal, I will say, you have a reputation for saying what's on your mind. (02:26): It's actually one of my favorite things about you, my brother. You're thoughtful, you know your shit, and I've learned a lot sitting in a room with you as you've kind of called people out on why they do things and how they do things. And anyway, it's an honor to have you on. Welcome. Dr. Morr (02:44): So let me clarify. I just don't like bullshit. That's it. Dr. Seda (02:48): You don't like bullshit. Dr. Morr (02:50): I call bullshit. I like honesty and I like people that are just genuine and honest. Don't give me any fluff or bullshit. That's all I want. Dr. Seda (03:00): Fair enough. So we're going to try to stay true to that today in the hour session that we have. Cameron Full (03:05): This guy doesn't know any other way. Dr. Souyias (03:08): No fluff. An hour of no fluff. Cameron Full (03:10): Right. Dr. Seda (03:11): Yeah. So let's keep it real. You like to keep it real. So let me just read your bio real quick so the rest of the listeners can kind of keep up with who you are. So Tal graduated from the University of Florida with a degree in biology. He graduated summa cum laude from the dental school at Tufts in Boston and did his graduate education in prosthodontics at the University of Washington. He lectures all over the world. He's authored several chapters and books as well as articles. He's won the Saul Schluger Award for the Seattle Study Club, and he's a member of the AAED, AARD and ACP. So there you have it, the credentials. Dr. Souyias (04:03): Seda, you're a periodontist. That name should be easy to say. Dr. Morr (04:08): Famous. Dr. Souyias (04:11): Famous. Dr. Seda (04:11): Yes, yes. Dr. Souyias (04:14): I was messing with you. Cameron Full (04:15): I don't know anything about that, man. Dr. Souyias (04:16): Yeah, that's all right. Dr. Seda (04:19): So Tal, maybe you can just give a little bit of background in terms of your practice, what your practice is focused on, what you love doing, and then we can take it from there. Dr. Morr (04:28): So really when I was younger, I wanted to be in the medical field. I wasn't sure what. When I was young, I was also very artistic. I used to draw and sculpt and do all these different things. And when I was at University of Florida and I went and I volunteered at the medical school, and I remember walking around with the medical residents and I would go in the rows with them and watch them as they talked to the patients. And I was actually disturbed by the way they behaved with the patients. They wouldn't talk nicely to them. Everything was derogatory. It was just very unpleasant for me. I didn't like the attitude of the medical residents and it kind of turned me off. So I said, you know what? I'm going to try dentistry, something different where I get to use my hands. And I went and I volunteered at the dental school and I said, "Wow, this is way more for me. People are more down to earth. I get to use my hands and artistic talents." I said, "This is what I wanted." And then obviously I applied to dental school. I went to dental school and I have to say that for me, dental school came easy. I felt like I found what I was meant to do. When I went to school, I mean, I was in anatomy class. I was teaching. We had teacher assistants. They were doing dissections. I had my own thing and people were watching me dissect. It just came, it was meant to be for me. And I met a guy who, Hiroshi Hirayama, who was the head of. (06:13): Back then he was a prosthodontist working in the clinic and he kind of took me out of his wing and he said, "You should be a prosthodontist. I really think this is what you need to be doing." And I finished my requirements early and I was thinking about oral surgery, perio, something like that. And he kind of directed me towards prost and basically said, "Listen, I think you should be a prosthodontist and here's a school you have to apply to and if you get into University of Washington, that's where you have to go." I had no idea what the hell that was. So I went on for interviews, I go to my interview and I meet somebody that you guys probably all know interviewing for the cross program. And he basically said, "Where are you working?" I said, "I'm not working. I'm a dental student." He goes, "Oh my God, you're wasting your time. (07:05): You're never going to get in. I don't take any work straight from school." I said, "What do you mean?" I said, "I just paid a lot of money to come here to interview." And he said, "They'll never take you." He goes, "I did this and I did this residency and this AGD and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I get home and there's a message on my machine your accepted." Dr. Seda (07:25): You want to call out your buddy that told you that? Cameron Full (07:28): Call it out. Dr. Seda (07:29): Call it out, baby. Dr. Souyias (07:30): Come on. Dr. Seda (07:30): He's going to hear this. Dr. Morr (07:32): I won't. I don't want to do it. Cameron Full (07:35): Process of elimination? Dr. Seda (07:37): Does his last name sound like a K? He's not. Cameron Full (07:41): Does it rhyme with a Dinzer? Dr. Seda (07:45): Does it end in Inzer? Dr. Morr (07:51): He actually didn't make it into pros. He's a periodontist now. You probably know him. Dr. Seda (07:56): That's so funny. Okay. All right. All right. Dr. Morr (07:58): All of you know him. Anyway, the bottom line is I worked at UW, okay? I think I was the first or maybe the second to ever come straight out of school and it was really an amazing program. Why? Because they teach you so much about dentistry, but not even that part. It's the inspiration that you gained by being around people like John Cois and Frank Spear and Vince. Dr. Seda (08:22): So maybe you could just tell everyone, at the time that you were there, it was kind of like the center of the universe for dentistry at University of Washington. Dr. Morr (08:31): Was the best school in the country, probably in the world for. They took one person from the US and two people from Europe or somewhere else. So my class was a German guy, a Canadian guy, and myself. Cameron Full (08:44): Wow. Dr. Morr (08:45): So there were three residents and my class was a little strange. One guy was married with four kids. The other one thought he knew everything and he just wanted to come get a degree and whatever. So I kind of connected more to the people above me and after me, but it was a great experience. But it was really, I would say, Raf Udellis was the head of the program and then he kind of stepped back, but he was there all the time. There's people you wouldn't know, Warren Lipman, who was one of the best dentists I've ever seen. And he was in the clinic and John and Frank helped us and it was just an amazing experience. And what they taught me was to look at the big picture and to be inspired to achieve greatness like they did. So I would go to there, they advised us, we'd watch them lecture and see the work and say, "Oh my God, this is what I want to do, blah, blah, blah." So from that perspective, it was amazing. Dr. Seda (09:46): I will say this, you said about seeing the big picture. I've learned a lot from Tal, and if there's one thing that I've learned more than anything else, it's stop being so myopic about problems, step back and look at the bigger picture and we'll dig into that more. But I think it's a message that I think whether it's in our profession, with our kids, it's such an important lesson. So yeah, let's try to touch on that as we get into it. Dr. Morr (10:13): I brought that up because I wanted to mention something. When I went through the program, we talked about doing it the right way. I can tell you that my view of dentistry has changed totally flipped, but I'll just give you my story because I think it's important for whoever's listening, especially from the young people to consider because I learned a lot of lessons from my choices in life. So I came out of my program and I, of course, went back home to Florida and John wrote a letter for me to this periodontist who hooked me up with this general dentist. And I worked in his office for three years. And as I was working there, it just wasn't me. I didn't feel it was me. It wasn't my style. It was loud. It was obnoxious. It was dirty. It was just a big mess. And my practice wasn't building, so I was very fearful of going on my own. And then I had to make a decision, what do I do? I need to do something my way. So I started a practice from scratch. (11:19): Going back, if I think about it, that was the hardest thing. I'm not sure that was the right choice. And the reason I'll say that is because it took me forever to build my practice, to prove myself, to prove who I am because I didn't compromise. I think for a young person today, they have to decide from the beginning what their path is because there's different paths. One path is excellence. That path of excellence means that you don't compromise your work. What does that mean? That means that when you do your work, everything that you do has a reflection of you when it leaves your office, everything. That means my crown prep, my temp, my final, anything that anyone sees needs to be impeccable if you want to create a reputation for the best. And that's what I did. So I compromised, I spent more time, I spent higher lab fees, I did everything. (12:24): I was a perfectionist. I did everything as good as I can. And now I can say that it's definitely worked for my reputation. However, there are other choice you can make. And there's two other choices. One is to say, okay, screw it. I just want to do it for the fucking money and go and do your work and get your money and go home and forget about dentistry, which in a way is better financially and it's better psychologically. Because when I go home, I don't forget about dentistry. I'm working on my lectures. I'm working on articles. I'm working on chapters, whatever I'm doing. It's never ending. And then there's a middle ground and I think you need to decide which way you want to do and there's no right or wrong. I don't judge anybody anything. As long as you do no harm, I'm fine with it. (13:24): So I chose the high level and that's why it took me so long to build my practice because I was charging more. I was paying more for my expenses. Everything just took a lot longer. If I would've bought practice, I would've been able to build it quicker, I believe. Dr. Seda (13:44): Tal, can you define what you mean when you say build? When you say it took longer, took longer to do what? Be profitable? Dr. Morr (13:54): Yes. To be profitable, to be profitable and to be, not to build my reputation, but to be profitable and to feel like I'm being compensated for my efforts just took longer. Cameron Full (14:12): Well, it takes longer to find the right fits, right? The people that, not just the patients that want to work with you, the whole, that's the thing is that if you're willing to accept less, there's just a larger pool of people that are interested. Dr. Morr (14:30): There are. There are a lot of people, but it takes time. You have to prove yourself in this. Cameron Full (14:37): Well, especially when you get to that upper level of anything, I think. Dr. Morr (14:41): So I built my practice and in the beginning, everything was like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it the right way. I'm not compromised. I'm going to use the best labs. Dr. Seda (14:52): How many years have you been in practice? Dr. Morr (14:55): I graduated in 1995. Dr. Seda (14:57): 95? Dr. Morr (14:58): 31 years. Yeah. Dr. Seda (14:59): And how many years would you say did it take to get to the quote unquote place of your practice had been built? Dr. Morr (15:09): The way I wanted it or the way I expected it to be? 15 years. Dr. Seda (15:13): Yeah. Dr. Morr (15:15): Which is long. Dr. Seda (15:16): You had a family? Dr. Morr (15:18): I had a family, yes. Yes. I got married. I had a family. It was not an easy road. Dr. Seda (15:24): Do you regret doing it the way you did it? Dr. Morr (15:29): Yes and no. Cameron Full (15:31): That's a good question. Dr. Morr (15:33): What do I mean by that. I would say about 12 years ago, maybe 15 years ago. I don't even know. I'm so terrible with time. A friend of mine in the area, they had the biggest practice. There was a group practice, two dentists, and they said, "Hey, why don't you come and join us and we'll take over Aventura." (16:00): And one of them is my best friend and the other one is a good friend of mine. So I'm saying to myself, I mean, this could be a lot of fun, right? You get to practice with other people. They're general dentists, but they do a lot of big stuff and they have a beautiful gigantic office. They had four hygienists. I mean, they're making a ton of money. So I said, "I'll tell you why. Let's try it. I'm going to leave my practice as is. I'm just going to close the door. I'm going to take my girls with me. I'm going to practice in your office and we'll see how things go." So I go and I move to their practice and I'm there for six months. And after two weeks, my gut was not feeling good. Why? Because it was the style of the practice. (16:52): Everything was business. And I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It's a great thing, but it's not my style. My style is family, relationships. And after six months, they came to me and I said, "Okay, so let's move on. Why don't you join the practice?" And I said, "You know what guys? I just don't think it's for me." And basically what I did is I said, "If you don't mind, I'll stay here for a few months. I'm going to fix my office because it was after years of my office." I redid my office and I moved back to my office. And I could say that today they have now six dentists, three practices, and they're making a fricking fortune like you wouldn't believe. And my wife's like, "What the fuck is wrong with him? What is wrong with you?" And then I look back and this comes to your question, did I make the right choice? (17:51): Could I have just gone with it? I don't know the answer. I wish I was somewhere in the middle because now I'm really stuck at this point in my career. Why? Because I built this practice based on. I'm like the MacGyver of dentistry. I swear to God. Dr. Seda (18:16): You take impressions with chewing gum. Dr. Morr (18:19): I just figure shit out. When people don't know what to do, they send the patients. And I can't even explain to you what I see on a daily basis. And it's very difficult because to sell my practice would be very difficult to find someone who could do what I do. I'm not saying that I'm the best. I'm saying it's just difficult and instead of focusing on building my practice as a group practice of bringing in an associate from the beginning, blah, blah, blah, I didn't. I made it about me and that was a huge mistake from a exit strategy perspective. (19:03): So now I'm in this kind of position where I want to retire. I would like to be done by the time I'm 65 and 61, so four years to find someone. I'm at the point where I want to train somebody and have them come in and train them and then have them buy a good practice. But my view of dentistry has changed as well. I realized over time that we were trained to look at the big picture and treat everybody in this comprehensive manner. And I realized the more complex the treatment is, the more chances that shit's going to happen, bad shit complicates treatment, complicates for the patient, complicates it for me. I have control and I can't manage everybody and what they're going to give me. And ultimately I'm the one who has to deal with it in the end. The orthodontist says, "See you later." They never see the patient periodontist where the surgeon does the same thing. (20:04): The point I'm making is that my perspective and view of dentistry has changed dramatically. I'm doing things a much simpler way if I can get away with it without doing damage to teeth. And I think I'm at this point where I'm actually very good at that, figuring out how to do it in a less aggressive way, less costly way. Well, I'm still expensive as shit, but besides there's other people, less people involved. Dr. Souyias (20:32): But I got to imagine there's somebody out there, like a prosthodontist coming out. You've got a great reputation. There's got to be somebody out there that wants the mentorship you could provide. Dr. Morr (20:44): I'm sure there is. I have to find it. Dr. Seda (20:48): And I think this touches on an important point just for a second, Tal. I'm going to double click on something. So if you could go back to that moment in time when you had to make that decision, and I think we've all had these inflection points and we make a decision based on what we want. And recently I've been reading a book. The name of the book is called Wanting, and its thesis is basically we all make decisions based on things that we think we want. And what we realize later on is we don't know what the fuck we want. We think we know, but we don't really know unless you do some serious work to be self-aware, to really be thoughtful, to take time and examine things. And so if we take your example, you're faced with the decision of do I go for excellence? (21:35): And it's all about the details, et cetera. If you had chosen another path, you would have been miserable because that's just not who you are. So even if it was financially maybe a different decision, a better decision, at the end, inside in your core, you would have still been miserable and struggling and questioning and wishing and all these things, right? And I think - Cameron Full (21:58): Just with more money. Dr. Seda (21:59): Yeah, exactly. And so one of the things that I want everyone to take away, because I made a decision to mold my practice in a similar fashion the way Tal has, the way Jason has. I mean, I've had mentors that have really all come to dentistry with that same perspective. And it's just my personality that I can't leave something on the table if I know it could have been done better, right? If I do, I go home, I obsess about it. It's out of my control. And so what happened? It took me longer, just like you said. And I'm now 50. And what I've learned is even though it was a bigger struggle upfront and it wasn't immediate gratification, but now people come to me and they're in my chair and I'm like, "How did you find me?" "Well, you did this thing for my wife and the dentist said you did such a great job and my wife liked it. (22:56): And so what I've learned is in the second half over the arc of my career, all that hard work in some way is starting to pay dividends because people recognize the level to which I do things and you have to be ready for that because if you're expecting to make 80 or 90% of what you're building wealth-wise in the first 10, 15 years of your career as a dentist, you're going to be horribly disappointed, right? But if you can put in the time and be patient and delay the gratification, try to have fun along the way, but realize that if you do things the right way and make the choice to do it that way later in your career, it will likely pay dividends. That's another way of looking at it. But again, it has to align with who you are. If you're someone that you like to do it a different way, then by all means, go ahead. So I'm sure at some point you'll look back and realize that you don't regret the decision. Dr. Morr (23:53): No it's not. I don't regret the decision because it's me. It is who I am. Dr. Seda (23:57): Exactly. Dr. Morr (23:58): I do my work for the patient and for me. Yes. I don't work for the patient. I do it for me. Like I said, everything's a reflection of me. I put my heart and my soul and my work and it's a reflection of me. Everybody comes to me and they go, oh my God, I saw this and this and this. I mean, I get patients from all over, right? It's not that I lack the amount of patience. So what's my limitation? My limitation is these hands right here. So how can I improve on that where I have to raise my fees? I'm raising my fees all the time to compensate for the amount of time and effort that I'm putting in that I could believe that I built a reputation for. And there are people that are searching for that, but I can't do it. I will never change the way I practice. I just can't do it. It's not me. That's my point. And when I look at my friend who's making a fortune, a fortune, I'm happy as shit for him. But in my gut, I knew that it wasn't me. It just wasn't me. Dr. Seda (25:05): You wouldn't have had peace. You wouldn't have had peace. And that's what I think. At the end of the day, it's like peace and tranquility is the goal of life, at least of all the searching. Yeah. And happiness is something that comes and goes. It's a feeling just like sadness or pain or anything else, but peace and tranquility is the ultimate goal. And when you're making decisions in your life, hopefully you're doing them to be aligned with having more peace and tranquility in your life. Dr. Morr (25:32): 100% Dr. Souyias (25:33): Contentment, right? Dr. Seda (25:34): Yes. Dr. Morr (25:35): 100%. Dr. Seda (25:36): Okay. So I want to keep us on the rails here. So Tal, let's get to a list because I mean, you have a lot of amazing stuff to say, but I think this list will help guide it. So what they teach you and don't teach you in pros residency, what did you want to touch on? Dr. Morr (25:55): Teach you to look at the big picture. They teach you how to treat the patient. They teach you nothing about business and they teach you nothing about building a practice. And they don't teach you about relationships. They just teach you how to look at the big picture and how to treat and how. I think the main thing they taught me was, not taught me, but they created this desire to achieve greatness by who I was surrounded by, by my mentors. I think that's really the main thing that I brought because obviously you guys know, when you come out of dental school, you don't know shit. Nothing. It blows my mind actually when I did the pros program and I was number one in my class. Fuck, I didn't know anything. Cameron Full (26:45): I'm always cautious to think of chicken and the egg, or were you drawn to that because that's who you were? I mean, we became friends the last, what, three and a half years or so, give or take, three years, whatever. And you're a precise individual. You're just a very deliberate thinker and you're a precise individual. And don't you think that is what drew you to working with them and particularly the appeal of being a prosthodontist? Dr. Morr (27:21): I think the reason the University of Florida was such a great program is because they picked exactly the right people. They had a knack for picking the right people. And if you look at the speakers all over the world from my program, we all have this drive, we all have this energy, we all have this precision. They knew who to choose now, but if I didn't choose that path, I wouldn't be where I am, right? You have to have that connection, right? They choose you and you accept, and then you go on that journey. But if they chose me and I didn't accept, I wouldn't be on it. I'd be different. Cameron Full (28:10): You'd be still working in your friend's practice. Dr. Morr (28:13): I'd be retired. I think I have a friend, he's an oral surgeon. He's building a teaching institute right here in Aventura, and I'm going to do courses out of live courses from his office. Nice. That's my plan. Cameron Full (28:35): So you're going to retire from dentistry to do more dentistry? Got it. Dr. Morr (28:38): Not to do dentistry, teach dentistry. Cameron Full (28:40): He's going to teach dentistry. Dr. Morr (28:45): I enjoy it. I just don't enjoy the traveling all over the place. Travel today is not what it used to be. Cameron Full (28:55): Seda jump to number two. Yeah. Dr. Souyias (28:57): We kind ff hit that. Dr. Seda (28:58): Yeah. So I feel like we've been kind of hitting things in the initial opening conversation, but choosing your path early, right or wrong? Dr. Morr (29:07): Yes. So choosing your path, like I said, you have different choices and there's no right or wrong, and it's all based on your personality type. Dr. Seda (29:16): Yeah. I think - Dr. Morr (29:18): I wish I was more laid back and more nonchalant and less obsessive. I really do, but that's just not me. Dr. Seda (29:28): Yeah. I think when you come out of school, at some point, at first, you just want to get started, and so you feel like whatever opportunities come your way, you just want to seize them. And sometimes it's hard to restrain yourself from entering into different scenarios that may not fully suit you as you are with your personality or skillset or whatever. And so I think for a lot of younger people listening, one of the things to pay attention to is as you're navigating your early career is really just considering that and paying attention to where you feel pain points or things that don't feel right, and then trying to resolve those in your own mind and in your heart to try to see what is it about the conditions that you're working in that could change for you and make it more satisfying or peaceful. (30:27): For me, now that I'm onto that in my practice, I really want to take each day, hopefully as a day where there isn't a lot of tension or pain points coming my way. And over the arc of time, there's been less pain points each day, but I can't remember a day going by where I don't have at least a few. And as soon as they come up, we try to identify why am I feeling this way? What's going wrong? How can we address this? And so I'm constantly molding and shaping the environment around me to suit me in a way that's best for me. So for example, I hate waiting for instruments in the operatory, right? And it's like a boxer, you're ready, you're warmed up, you're ready to go, the bell rings, and now you want to get out there and start jabbing and boxing and now you got to wait because you don't have your gloves on. (31:26): It's insane to me. And so we're constantly working on how we can minimize that or explaining things to patients. It's one of the most monotonous parts of our job is we're explaining the same set of circumstances. There's probably 10 or 15 of them to thousands of people each year. Cameron Full (31:48): Except Tal says it in three words, what you say in 70 Seda. Dr. Morr (31:56): I explain it. I draw pictures. I do everything. Dr. Seda (31:59): Yeah. And so do you do it yourself or does your team do it? Dr. Morr (32:03): I do it. I get enjoyment from it. I think, and this is really important, I think how do you build relationships and how do you gain patience? I think it's all based on confidence level of the patient and your knowledge of the person. I blow them away, dude. Blow them away. Dr. Seda (32:31): Confidence has never been your weakness, if you will. Dr. Morr (32:35): Because I lay it out in a very confident way and I explain and they're like, "Wow, I never heard of that before." They're in. Cameron Full (32:44): I can just hear Tal, listen here. Dr. Morr (32:47): If I went to a doctor, I mean, I'm a little sick, okay? But if I went to a doctor, I want to know in detail, give me the fucking detail of what are you saying? So when a patient comes to me, I offer them details. Sometimes they say, "Hey, I don't need to know all the details." I'm like, "No problem." And other times they go, "Wow, that is so interesting. I never thought no one ever told me anything about that. That makes total sense." And that's what I do because I like teaching, number one, and I like to inform. I think people need to be informed. And I tell them, "Listen, whether you come see me or not, don't let anyone do this, but make sure you do this. That's how I treat every family member. What would I tell my family member?" And I think that's really builds confidence within the patient towards you. Dr. Souyias (33:43): I think it does. When you guide a patient through that process, it bonds you to them, right? And it's our job to educate them whether we're part of the solution or not. Dr. Morr (33:55): Exactly. What they're paying us for a consult for you. Dr. Souyias (33:57): Correct. Dr. Seda (33:58): Yeah. I had a day, you guys relate to this, about a month ago where I got to the office at seven in the morning. I stayed all day, worked through lunch. There was emergencies. I finally left the office at 5:45. I felt like I'd spent the whole day, hadn't seen sunlight, and I left the office feeling kind of down like, "What did I just do for a day of my life?" And I just turned 50. So there's something that happens when you turn 50 where you realize there is another 80 to go. If you're lucky, you've got 25 more to go. (34:36): I've been on this ChatGPT bender the last week, just asking it all sorts of obscure stuff. So I get on ChatGPT and I say, "Chat, I just spent 12 hours in my office. I didn't step outside for lunch. I didn't see the sun. Did I just waste a day of my life?" And you want to know what it said? Yes. Because I'll never forget, it changed my life. I'll never see things the same way again after it gave me. That's why don't underestimate AI, said Michael. In fact, you should see it as a privilege that today you were in that office helping people make better decisions about their health. You were educating them and healing them. And honestly, it really is a privilege. I'm so grateful to do what we do. And when you see it that way, it makes it a lot more joyful. (35:32): I mean, we have all these pressures of dealing with a team that has all these needs and the patients, and sometimes maybe they talk too much and they say the same things over and over again and it's hard to find the joy. But Tal, as you talked about educating people, it's a gift to be able to do it on a daily basis. Dr. Morr (35:49): Makes sense. Dr. Souyias (35:52): Tal's one of the best educators I've ever seen. I love sitting through your presentations when I've seen them and man, I always take away so much from that. So you are a fabulous educator. Cameron Full (36:04): Let's go back to this ChatGPT bender thing. How often do you like going down to the deep dark low of ChatGPT for an hour? Dr. Seda (36:15): I mean, how dark do you get with this, Cameron? Cameron Full (36:19): Me? I don't. Dr. Seda (36:20): Yeah. Enlighten us. Cameron Full (36:21): I use it for production. Dr. Seda (36:21): I didn't say anything about dark. Cameron Full (36:24): I produce with my AI usage. You're over there falling behind on emails I'm sending because you're talking to Chat about your day being- Dr. Souyias (36:33): Wasting my day. Dr. Seda (36:34): Although I will say we use AI a lot in the practice and it's really made us so efficient so many ways. Tal, it's one of the things I like to ask all our guests. How are you using AI these days? Dr. Morr (36:45): My objective is to start having, I want to do the one that's share side that takes notes for you, but there's different ones and I'm trying to figure out what's the best one. So that's what I want to do with it. In terms of reading a radiograph, I haven't done it. So what are you using it for? Dr. Seda (37:08): Primarily for record - Cameron Full (37:09): Besides being a therapist. Dr. Seda (37:12): Besides trying to figure out the meaning of life. Listen, I'm out here in California, bro. We're a Northern Cal. Kumbaya. Dr. Souyias (37:23): Kumbaya. Dr. Seda (37:25): Kumbaya Bitches. Dr. Morr (37:27): Forget it. ChatGPT. Dr. Seda (37:30): No, but we use it for, first of all, records. It's listening to every patient encounter. It's amazing to me how much gets lost without it. Dr. Morr (37:41): Which one is it? Dr. Seda (37:43): Pardon? Dr. Morr (37:44): What's the name of it? Dr. Seda (37:45): We use Heidi Medical AI and we've tried different ones. I've tried all sorts of different ones. That one seems to be the one that works best for us. Actually, we don't even pay for it. It's a free open source type of thing. But regardless of which one we use, I highly recommend anyone not using it to really get behind it and get out there and you start using it because there's so many things that get captured that I never would've thought to write down, but then in subsequent encounters with patients, it's there in the notes and I can refer to it and either it saves me from making a worse decision based on the information I had because I had that information or it just makes me look like I've got my shit together that much better, certain details and whatnot. And then lastly, as a medical record, people will say you didn't say things or didn't explain things or it's just like photos. (38:43): I photo every patient, every step of every surgery is photographed so that in the case of, well, this wasn't there before you did something, Dr. Seda. Well, in fact, Mr. Jones, it was, here's the photo. So it's much like that. Cameron Full (38:57): The candlestick in the library. Dr. Seda (39:00): Exactly. Dr. Morr (39:01): But so what? Everything is like a book then because it's every long appointments and it's recording everything. Dr. Seda (39:06): No, but you have to understand it. It selectively knows what needs to get into the chart and what doesn't. And then you can set it like, "I want it detailed. I want it super detailed. I want it simple." I mean, there's settings and you play with them and eventually you dial it in. And it's also learning from what you like, so it learns. It's phenomenal. The other thing I use it for is correspondence. Anytime I want to write an email to a doctor or I'm reviewing x-rays and I come up with a treatment plan, the bane of my existence was sitting there and spending 15 minutes banging out an email with all the syntax and the comments and the detail and the x-rays. Now I just use my microphone, I give it an audio prompt, and then I may even cut and paste the chart note and I'll say, "Write an email to Dr. Morr, outlining the treatment plan and ask him this question." And then within 10 seconds I have the email, I send it off. And other than me being lazy, what it does is it speeds the rate at which we can get through treatment planning and coordinating and all these things to get patients through treatment or else it would've been like weeks of me waiting to write these emails or coordinating things, whatever. So it just makes things a lot more efficient. (40:29): All right. Well guys, we're approaching the end here. Tal, what about maximizing profits and solo practice and exit strategy? Dr. Morr (40:38): Yeah. So we talked about that too. I made sure I hate all the notes. Dr. Seda (40:42): Yeah, no. I mean, you stole our thunder. Cameron Full (40:45): You just ripped through the list in like 26 minutes. What the fuck we got to talk about? I got shit to do. Dr. Morr (40:51): I thought they were important for the young people. I mean, in terms of exit strategy, I told you, I think I made a mistake. I should have brought someone in years ago and mentor them and develop them and have somebody there that could eventually take over my practice. I think you should never focus on making the practice just about you. Dr. Seda (41:19): Any new technology you're using in the practice, whether it's impressions or - Dr. Morr (41:28): I'm using intra oral scanner, but I could tell you that technology is not what it's meant to be. In other words, people focus way too much on technology. I think that it's inaccurate. I could tell you it's inaccurate. They'll do it in the conventional way, but I utilize. If you take a analog impression, a final impression, you can convert it into a digital impression, correct? Dr. Seda (41:55): Yes. Dr. Morr (41:56): Okay. If you take a digital impression, it's a digital impression. You can't convert it into an analog because it's printing technology is inaccurate and so is the scanner's inaccuracies. So if you take the analog, you can do the digital world and bring it back to the analog world and have the best of both worlds. Whereas if you start only digital, you're in a digital world. (42:20): That's why I do things from an analog world and bring it into digital world. So I'm doing a lot of the things that I did through analog in the beginning and now I'm in the digital world and I have very good success. I still use guys that do feldspathic ceramic. I mean, how many technicians still do that? Almost none. I still do porcelain fusion metal sometimes if I have to. How many people do that? Almost none. Nobody. I'm still doing techniques, galvano coping cases, things like that. All these different things that people don't even know what the hell they are anymore. I'm using old school techniques and old school technicians. So the world is changing. The dental world is changing, but not for a more precise world, for a faster world, for a more efficient world, for maybe a more financial world. And we just talked about me not being. (43:23): It's not what I do this for. I do it for the precision or for those things. So I think dentistry is changing. It's just like, I mean, everybody's on their phones 24 hours a day. The world has changed dramatically and I don't really want to be in the dental world where it's all digital because I don't ever believe that it's going to be 100% as accurate and as well done as the way we did it. Cameron Full (43:50): There's something to be said about craftsmanship and a commitment to one's craft, right? Dr. Seda (43:57): Well said. Cameron Full (43:58): And whether it's being a dentist or I like to use the idea of a baker. I like to talk about bakers for some reason. Dr. Souyias (44:07): Because you like pastries. Cameron Full (44:08): I like pastries. But the commitment to one's craft is like, could we all be so lucky to have that level of commitment? And I think for the guys that. There's nothing wrong with that dentist friend of yours that has six practices or whatever the hell she's doing. But what that person inevitably will find is that they must get fulfillment elsewhere. For sure. I argue that money is but a tool to help you get other things and not many of those things can be bought. The things that you truly want are the things that can't be bought. A vocational commitment to one's craft, a lifelong commitment to excellence, whether it's being a baker or a dentist is truly a calling. And so I think it's wonderful that you made the mistake. Dr. Seda (45:14): Bravo, Cameron. Well said. Cameron Full (45:16): I think it's wonderful. Dr. Seda (45:18): Hallelujah. Cameron Full (45:20): The dental world would be less of a space had you just built practices, man. I have no doubt that you would have developed the level of excellence there too that you have in your clinical outcomes now, but I would argue that you probably wouldn't be fulfilled. And so fuck it. Dr. Seda (45:46): Yeah. Dr. Morr (45:46): Thank you. I agree. Dr. Seda (45:48): I read something the other day, you can microwave a steak and cook it a hell of a lot faster, but who the fuck wants to eat a microwaved steak, right? But if you can learn how to grill a steak the right way, now that's living. You know what I'm saying? So it's like - Cameron Full (46:13): Sounds like that's those fucking ideas. Dr. Souyias (46:17): There's the sound bite from this episode. There you go. You can microwave a steak. Dr. Seda (46:21): That's what I'm talking about. Dr. Souyias (46:23): That's a good one, Michael. Dr. Seda (46:25): Listen, I'm more than halfway through my career. And at some point it was so hard and so grueling and so demanding, I couldn't start. I was crossing off the years on the calendar to the time I could retire. It was just really tough on me. And now as I'm on the second half, I'm realizing if I can do this in a more controlled way, in perpetuity, maybe not to the degree I'm doing it now, there's a satisfaction as Cameron said about being excellent at something and getting better and learning about it and learning from my mistakes. And it's an outlet for me that God forbid if I don't have it, it will be. The energy I build up inside as a result of not having it will be thrust upon those around me. God forbid. My kids, my partner, she's already got enough to deal with, with me. (47:26): I'm a handful. So I'm curious to see. I'm going to remember to call you in four years. I'm sure I'll see you between now and then, but we'll see if you're actually going to retire. I probably see something more like you'll be in there once or twice a week. Dr. Morr (47:42): I don't think I'll retire. I don't think I can retire. Dr. Seda (47:46): And plus kids are damn expensive no matter how old they are. Dr. Morr (47:50): That's very true. Dr. Seda (47:52): That's a whole nother conversation. Dr. Souyias (47:56): On the next episode, yeah. Dr. Seda (47:58): Well, Dr. Morr, here we are. We're at the end, the conclusion. Thank you for sharing some of your insights with us today. You clearly, your outspoken nature fits really well with our format and it's been an honor and a privilege having you on. Thanks for giving us your time. Dr. Morr (48:17): You told Cam said, "Take 30 seconds and think about some questions you want to answer." So I gave you the answer to the question. Dr. Souyias (48:27): This was good, man. This great. Dr. Seda (48:28): Less is more. Less is more. Cameron Full (48:29): It's good to see you, brother. Dr. Seda (48:30): Definitely good to see you, man. Thanks for coming on. Dr. Souyias (48:33): Thanks for listening to The Special Lists presented by Referral Lab, the podcast for dentists and dental specialists, featuring a special list from a specialist. Got a question for us? Send us a message at speciallists.com with two Ls. Transform your referral workflow with Referral Lab, a purpose-built platform for dental specialists to track, manage, and convert every referral. Request a demo at referrallab.io.